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- Created by John Masson, last modified on Dec 21, 2011
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We're collating feedback on the new editor introduced in Confluence 4.0 here. If you have feedback on a bug, a task you now find harder or are unable to do in the new editor then please leave a comment below and we'll incorporate it into this page (and remove the comment afterwards).
For the background on why Wiki markup was removed in Confluence 4.0, please read our blog post, Why We Removed the Wiki Markup Editor in 4.0.
Feedback
Resolved
Comments from this page that have been implemented since raised.
Customer Feedback | Atlassian | |||
Theme | From | Comment | Notes | Related Tickets |
---|---|---|---|---|
Find & Replace | Jean-Yves Avenard, Nils Andresen, Brad Newman, Peter Burkholder, Ole Kværnø, Diego Ballve | No more editing with an external text editor where you can run quick find/replace, quickly. | In-editor Find & Replace released in Confluence 4.1 | CONF-4042 - Getting issue details... STATUS |
Code Macro | Ilya Kaplun | When i paste formatted code into the block, all the leading spaces are removed, and so i have to re-tab everything | Fix released in v4.0.5 | CONF-23564 - Getting issue details... STATUS |
Migrating Macro | Jean-Yves Avenard | As the wiki being edited is about a mathematical tool, there's lots of use of upper/lower script and font of different size. As the feature to change the font size isn't available with confluence, we created a macro small/big like so: {small:80}text{small}. The wysiwyg is completely broken for those, the smaller sized text appears on a different line so you have to keep switching between wysiwyg mode and preview. | The Confluence macros that were used to markup text (like {color}) have been replaced with plain HTML. You can create a migration for you macro that will convert those macros to say "<subscript>text</subscript>". See Upgrading and Migrating an Existing Confluence Macro to 4.0. | |
Copy & Paste Table Rows | Anonymous | Copy & Paste of content to and from tables is a mess | Let me know if there are still specific problems you're having but the changes to tables in 4.0.5 that are detailed in CONF-23408 will fix a lot of them I suspect. I'll note as resolved but if anyone still has problems with this in 4.0.5 please let me know, | CONF-23408 - Getting issue details... STATUS |
Copy & Paste List Items | Nils Andresen | Moving things around in lists (like this one..) by using copy & paste is horrible | Nils we implemented CONF-23842 in 4.0.5, love to confirm if this fixed the problems you were having? | CONF-23842 - Getting issue details... STATUS |
Anonymous |
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Copy & Paste Bug | Alexy Kotenko | So the problem is this - is in the text I've pasted below I copy a line "- rollout (release, 'there') script "/database/main/JIRA_full_ticket_number_rollout.sql" and paste in below replacing the "asdad" line - editor is stuck, no editing available any more, no hotkeys working. Luckily the browser keeps working so I can click "Save" with a mouse and not loose the work done before it. | Fixed in Confluence 4.1. | CONF-24066 - Getting issue details... STATUS |
JIRA Issues Raised
Please note that while JIRA issues have been raised for all these comments, I don't want to set unreasonable expectations so just be aware that being in this list is not a guarantee of something being implemented. As always our Implementation of New Features Policy and Bug Fixing Policy apply.
Customer Feedback | Atlassian | |||
Theme | From | Comment | Notes | Related Tickets |
---|---|---|---|---|
Autocomplete | Anonymous | I want "insert jira issue" to be included in the autocomplete when I start with {jira, which now only shows the 'JIRA Issues' and 'JIRA Portlet' macros | JIRA issue raised. | CONF-23858 - Getting issue details... STATUS |
Find & Replace for Links | MattS | How do I change 100 URLs on a page that have a typo in their domain name? Manually updating each one really doesn't scale. | Matt, I updated comment to put your extra feedback in now that it's clarified what this is about and raised CONF-24186. | CONF-24186 - Getting issue details... STATUS |
Find & Replace for Formatting and Macros | Peter Burkholder | Search and Replace Formatting: Under markup, I could export a page to a real editor, and change all the .h1 to .h2, or the \{code\} to \{blockquote\} That's a trivial example, but often had real-use cases when, say, my boss has pasted in an email, verbatim, and I needed to change all the forward indents so it's useful going forward, or when importing a page from some off-the-radar wiki out there | Peter, I've raised CONF-24200 to track this. | CONF-24200 - Getting issue details... STATUS |
Autocomplete for Macros | When inserting a macro with properties (like note:heading=...) I am currently unable to do this | Nils, Ilya, Jean-Yves, there's a JIRA case for a proposed idea to alleviate this concern referenced, it would be great to get any feedback on this that you have. This should be released in 4.1.1. |
CONF-24038
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Getting issue details...
STATUS
| |
Ilya Kaplun | I used to be able to say {code:sql} and paste formatted code into the editor, and get a nice, syntax highlighted code block. now the only way to specify the language as SQL is to double click, open the gui editor, select from dropdown. | |||
Anonymous | I want to be able to insert or edit a macro and it's paramaters without having to touch the mouse | |||
Anonymous | In wiki markup, I just typed it. Now, I have to use shortcuts, mouse clicks, and menus. I just want to type. | |||
Jean-Yves Avenard | You start entering a macro, and your workflow is interrupted by distracting UI asking you to enter the arguments.... | |||
RTE for Page Templates | Justin Spies | In the past I viewed the Wiki text version, copied that text and then pasted it into a new template. How do I do so now without having to create the document twice since the template editor is not rich text, but rather is straight Wiki text? | This is on the near term roadmap for Confluence. | CONF-11744 - Getting issue details... STATUS |
Nest Expand Macros | Alexander Bezruk | Ability to nest expand macros | In 3.5 you could create additional expand user macros with different names (expand2, expand3 etc, technique described here) and they would work while nested. Using this technique, with that old user macro code doesn't work. | CONF-24201 - Getting issue details... STATUS |
Monospace Formatting Issue | Anonymous | Monospace text not ending where it should, I then have to mount my mouse and navigate through some little buttons to remove the formatting | Bug. JIRA issue raised | CONF-23984 - Getting issue details... STATUS |
List Indentation | Matthew Farrell | There is a bug with the list editor, If I create a list, and try to change the indentation of the items, the list breaks in two, it will drop off the list, and it is then impossible to rejoin the lists. | Bug. JIRA issue raised | CONF-24133 - Getting issue details... STATUS |
Autoformat for Links treatment | Anonymous | none-linked text becomes linked (also wrong) when doing copy and paste
becomes ldap:///CN=<CATruncatedName><CRLNameSuffix>,CN=DC1,CN=CDP,CN=Public Key Services,CN=Services,<ConfigurationContainer> | JIRA issue raised for reviewing auto linking behaviour where it appears to be over eager. | CONF-24122 - Getting issue details... STATUS |
Copy & Paste List Items (Colours) | Anonymous | I made a new page with enumerations... I colored most lines in green - not at once, but time after time. Now i mark the whole text and try to change the color to black. Guess what: some lines change to black. Some lines change to dark blue. (?? maybe these lines where blue some time ago??) And many lines stay green. If I only mark a paragraph at one time, the color is changed. and
Voilà, in one line the text disappeared! really gone, not white colored! bullet of the enumeration is still there. Can reproduce it as i sit here. | Could not reproduce in entirety but did see two bugs. JIRA case raised. Anonymous if you come back to read this can you advise what OS and Browser you were using? | CONF-24121 - Getting issue details... STATUS |
Spellcheck Bug | Grant Mantle | If there was a spelling mistake, and corrected with Chrome's dictionary selection, the replaced word automatically hops into the next column. | Bug. JIRA issue raised. | CONF-24120 - Getting issue details... STATUS |
TinyMCE Bug | Don Gamble | In Firefox, selecting an image does not highlight it. | TinyMCE issue that pre-dates the new editor, but tracking here since it was mentioned in the comments. | CONF-19882 - Getting issue details... STATUS |
Changing Macro Types | Don Gamble | Changing a macro from one type to another is now more complicated and no longer obvious. Yes you can select the macro, open the macro dialog, hit back, and then change the macro - but this is neither quick or obvious. | JIRA issue raised. | CONF-24204 - Getting issue details... STATUS |
Delete Macro, leave Body | Don Gamble | With the new editor there appears to be no way to delete a macro and leave the body. This is a real issue when you are editing with sections and columns and you are making major format and organizational changes. Cutting and pasting the body is a slow and clumsy solution. | JIRA issue raised. | CONF-24205 - Getting issue details... STATUS |
Cursor Positioning | Don Gamble | Under certain circumstances the cursor is not visible to the user on the screen, although it would seem that it is in fact active inside the editor because pressing a key (eg: delete) acts on the content. | Bug - Firefox 8 (Windows only). JIRA issue raised. | CONF-24091 - Getting issue details... STATUS |
Don Gamble | Backspace inside column macro deletes whitespace in section macro and page - Firefox 8 | Bug. JIRA issue raised. | CONF-24092 - Getting issue details... STATUS | |
Don Gamble | The cursor should be able to navigate 'over' an object such as an image in the page. | JIRA Issue Raised. | CONF-24094 - Getting issue details... STATUS | |
Fast | If I'm moving up and down with the cursor keys over a large document that has difference "sections" (bullets, noformat, etc). When I hit the down arrow 4 times, going through different sections, and then hit the up arrow 4 times, I expect to be in the same position. But often times I'm not. Similarly with right and left arrow keys. | I'll reproduce & raise cases for each of these soon Eddie. | ||
Fast | If I shift-select text within a bulleted list, and keep hitting shift-down arrow past the bulleted list into another section, what gets selected is something in the middle of the next line, shift-down arrow at the start of a line (whether bulleted or not) should always stay at the start of the line. It shouldn't jump around into the middle of a line. | |||
Fast | If I copy-paste a block, and then hit undo, I have some random block of text selected, then if I hit an arrow key to continue where I left off before the undo, I find my cursor to be in some random spot in the document (usually at the bottom, but not always). So I have to move my cursor back to where I was | |||
Fast | If I paste a block of text, the view of the document scrolls around (I'm guessing to try and center the view on the page?), very disorienting. | |||
Fast | Regarding the entire document going bold on paste, I have a page that does this, but I can't distribute it. I've made a copy of the page that doesn't do this. Again, if I had the wiki markup, I'd be able to reproduce it 100%, but this hit-and-miss is very frustrating. |
Require More Discussion
Customer Feedback | Atlassian | |||
Theme | From | Comment | Notes | Related Tickets |
---|---|---|---|---|
Link Editing | Anonymous | I wanted to edit the urls/text of links. in the wiki format i could just take [a|http://b] and modify the content of the link or the title. now i have to get a GUI popup, click link, edit the link url in the popup, and then edit the link text separately. much much worse user experience for a power user. | Anonymous, there was a bug that prevented you entering the link text in the link dialog which is now fixed as of 4.1 which helps. Does it go far enough to address your concerns? | CONF-24017 - Getting issue details... STATUS |
Removing HTML/CSS after Import/Paste | Andreas Pfotenhauer | ...imported from a trac wiki, and the importer had left some strange inline css in place, setting some padding and margins, and i was not able to remove it using the new wonderful editor, so finally i edited the page directly in the database... | Andreas, Matthias, I wondered whether you tried to select all content and use the 'Clear Formatting' option and how well that worked? | |
Matthias Basler | Finding bugs in the source code is difficult or impossible since one cannot see them in the WYSIWYG editor. (This includes invisible tags that should not be there, f.e. after copying content from a word document into the page) | |||
Formatting | Nils Andresen | If I have a table (or a note/warning) directly followed by a heading
| Nils, for a quick workaround of sorts, you can use the Keyboard Shortcuts to remove (and apply) the heading so you don't need to use the mouse when using your second approach. Do you think instead of maintaining the heading format on the line you create between the bottom of the table/macro and the heading we should instead default it to a plain paragraph? I'm not sure which seems the more natural myself, interested in your thoughts. | |
Anchor Links | sanjay srikonda | Linking within the same page is a nightmare in 4.0. I have to press CTL+K to bring up the link window, yet, NOTHING in that window seems to work for linking within the same page. I have to create the same link 3-4 times before it "sticks" in my page. | Sanjay, I'll try and recreate this and raise a bug in JIRA for you. | sanjay srikonda |
Inserting Images | sanjay srikonda | Inserting graphics through the UI is buggy because sometimes it will insert a graphic just fine and the next graphic it will NOT show up or even show in my attached dialog. And, sometimes, thumbnails are not showing up for some inexplicable reason. | Sanjay as mentioned previously this definitely sounds like a bug, did you raise a support ticket? | sanjay srikonda |
Working Offline | Peter Burkholder | Today I had to work on several significant planning pages while on a trip with no network access. With mark up this can still be done, but in 4.x that is gone | Peter, interested in whether you were creating new pages or editing existing? How often do you need to do either ? How did you do it 3.5? If you document in a text editor did you know you can use the Insert > Wiki Markup dialog to put it straight into a page, would this work for you? | |
Anonymous x3 | I often capture technical documentation in another editor before posting it to the wiki – this is in lieu of not documenting at all. What is broken is the ability to take these documents in wiki markup and work with it offline before reposting. | Is the problem here then that you need to be able to work offline? | ||
Find & Replace | Diego Ballve | Sometimes I used to copy a page away, do replacements on it using wiki syntax on text editor (say most of the page was good some paths and variables in the content had to be changed to reflect a different environment), then insert it back as new page. No can do now. | Diego, does the find/replace functionality in 4.1 solve your issue? | Diego Ballve |
Contribute without Access | Anonymous | Send a page by email in wiki-markup to a customer and they could update the documentation | Are you able to provide any additional details of the use case behind this? Interested in the scenario you have where the user can't be given access to edit directly, maybe security etc? | |
Matthias Basler | One point that became important for us just now is that up to now the wiki markup allowed to easily exchange content between wikis. Since confluence 4 there's no easy way any more to just copy the content or parts of a page to a text editor, send to someone else and have it inserted into another confluence wiki. | Matthias, interested in your use case as well and why it's not possible for you to just have access to the other Wiki if you need to contribute to it? If it's just an ad-hoc/one off thing, interested in how often you do this? | ||
Copy page structures | Anonymous | Copy/paste of complex layout, even on a mobile device | What's the use case behind this? Not something copy page can do? Have you tried copying from the Editor or View Source page? How often do you do this on a mobile versus desktop? | |
Mixed Lists | sanjay srikonda | how do I make a bulleted/numbered list with either/or in between and then continue the numbering. | Sanjay, I think CONF-23899 will be the beginning of the solution to this also. The next step will be allowing bullets to be included after the delete is done. Do you think that interaction makes sense? | sanjay srikonda |
Behaviour of Enter | Nils Andresen | the "enter insert new paragraph"-feature makes me cranky | Nils is this in lists (like above) or other situations also? Did you know about Shift+Enter to get a new line instead of a paragraph? I've added this to the FAQ and will remove this entry shortly. | Nils Andresen |
Updating User Macros | eddie connatser | I created my own Editable Table macro - which relies on saving its content by doing a form post with it's content as wiki-markup and html. The fact that wiki markup isn't processed in the new wiki editor breaks this macro. | Eddie, do the details on Upgrading and Migrating an Existing Confluence Macro to 4.0 help? | eddie connatser |
Pasting text | Brad Newman | it takes several button clicks and creation of whitespace to try and paste text in cleanly or fix errors in formatting (e.g. copy plain text, paste it and have it show up as bold, press return to separate out some whitespace, paste again, etc.) | Brad, I'll take a minute later to see if I can recreate this. Do you have any other specific examples of whitespace problems? | Brad Newman |
Tutorials | Greg Whitfield | Can you do a comprehensive "New Editor for Hardcore Wiki Markup Users" tutorial/whitepaper/video, that explains how they would work around the limitations imposed by the removal of the wiki editor | Greg, can you let me know what limitations people are reporting? Have you read Whats Changed for Wiki Markup Users? Very interested in your feedback if that didn't give you what you were after. | |
Shortcuts Helper | Shortcuts? I'm sure they are there.. but what about some simple list as the wiki markup list? And please don't tell me to click this icon or that icon, that is not what I'm after. Consider a help bar in the right side of the editor, for instance. I can't remember all the keyboard shortcuts as there are so many of them | Diego, Jean-Yves have you seen the icon at the top right of the editor bar? Click this gives you all of the shortcuts. Does this help, or do you mean that there should be a permanently displayed list of these while editing at all times? | Diego Ballve | |
Bug when Linking | Anonymous | Create a link on one line, looks fine in editor but preview has the link extending to the rest of the text on the page | I'll try to recreate and document this in a bug ticket. | |
Cursor Placement | Don Gamble | Experiencing issues with cursor placement / cursor not being present on the screen and also selection highlighting problems | JIRA issues to be created shortly. | |
Whitespace in Sections/Columns | Matthias Basler | Working with lots of sections/columns (i.e. we use them to position images and their captions) causes very clumsy nested macro blocks having lot of white space. This reduces the amount of visible content in the editor and makes the page appear very large (in the editor), which makes it hard to find the pieces to edit. Having a more compact appearance (similar to the tables!) would be preferable. | ||
Cursor Placement | Fast | Cursor navigation doesn't behave as expected | Comments below. Eddie, I'll update this soon, thanks for getting back to me. | |
Paste Problems | Fast | Copy/paste doesn't work as expected | As above | |
Paste Problems | Fast | Pasting into a bulleted list causes the entire document to go bold | As above | |
Copy to/from JIRA | Alex (posted Anonymously)
| We do sometimes copy over parts of the text from JIRA to Confluence and back, and earlier the wiki markup mode allowed to keep text formatting fully same across both systems without any additional effort.Right now you can copy formatted text from JIRA to Confluence, if you highlight and copy it from the issue details page, not issue edit. However, this is not that handy, because you can't use Ctrl+A to actually highlight all the description text instantly. And obviously - there is no way now to copy formatted text parts from Confluence to JIRA.
| Alex, I'd love to hear more details on your use case for this. Even before when both editors were using Wiki markup, it seems like a lot of manual work. Interested to know whether the new Remote Issue Links functionality that is coming in JIRA 5.0 would help you. You can see this working on jira.atlassian.com right now, eg: because I've referenced CONF-24038 - Getting issue details... STATUS on this page there is an automatic issue link created to point back to here (as well as the obvious link from here to the JIRA case). I find this handy as then say a spec will be written in Confluence and easily linked to the JIRA case. Seems to me the goal for us should be that we allow Confluence and JIRA to integrate in such a way that more value is created by using them together, and you wouldn't feel the need to copy/paste descriptions between them, so very keen to hear if Remote Issue Links helps or if it doesn't, more details on your needs. | |
Jean-Yves Avenard | It's just not possible to concentrate on the content and focus on the aspect later | Jean-Yves interested on more detail on this. Since you could just create text and format it later, I assume there is more to it than that? | Jean-Yves Avenard | |
Diego Ballve | Navigation is gone from the side when editor is on.. why? | Diego, can you let me know what you mean by this one? | Diego Ballve | |
Anonymous | The new editor is nice, but is a pain. A lot of functionality is lost. A lot of productivity is lost. | Love to get the details of the functionality and productivity | ||
nicolas frank | still som bugs to fix, but I am sure it will progress through the next versions | Nicolas, if you have any specific bugs you'd like listed please let me know | nicolas frank | |
Anonymous | I loved being able to focus entirely on the content and not to worry about the formatting | Does Wiki Markup Styler help with this? What is it that inhibits you from writing out your document then coming back through and formatting it afterwards? |
Additional Ideas
While we want the focus of this page to remain specific and detailed feedback on the new editing experience that we can address, a number of people have put considerable effort into outlining their ideas for alternate editing strategies and we also wanted to capture these below.
From | Idea |
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Alexy Kotenko | Okay, as the WYSIWYG abilities are wider than wiki markup allows - let it be. But you can still provide a solution similar to one implemented in JIRA search. In there you have a search form for rather simple requests, and direct SQL edit for complicated requests. And if directly edited SQL is too complicated to show it as a form - it just tells you "search query is too complicated" and doesn't allow to switch back to form. As earlier you have claimed that implementing XML-to-wiki transformation is easy - I see no problem to still allow wiki edit, but with XML format on backend and disallow wiki if something too complicated was created through WYSIWYG. This can easily be added as a plugin, to solve your problem with complains on the core software. |
Anonymous (In reponse to Alexy) | This sounds like a very good idea, and I hope Atlassian will take the time to investigate it. By definition, people who still want to use wiki markup will not be using the most complex WYSIWYG-only formatting, so it should be possible to convert almost everything such users write back to markup. Another suggestion would be to extend the Wiki Markup Styler plugin to do the same thing. Ideally, any content that can be converted back to markup, would be. And any complex elements that cannot be converted would just appear as they do in the normal WYSIWYG view. This would avoid the possibility of one complex piece of content causing a whole page to be marked as "too complicated to edit through wiki markup". If Atlassian choose to do this, the other vital requirement (for me) is that we can copy the wiki markup from the editor. At the moment, the plugin displays markup elements on-screen, but if I try to copy them it just gives me the underlying text. In common with other commenters, sometimes I prefer to copy markup from a Confluence page into a text editor and edit it there, before pasting it back (either into a different page, or into another part of the same page). |
Todd Day | Ability to wrap entire pages in the Wiki Markup macro and not have them auto-convert to storage format. Additionally:
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Don Gamble | Treat macros and all special editor objects (images, links, etc) the same - i.e. they would all have a frame. Currently the new editor doesn't treat everything as equivalent. This results in issues with where the insertion point moves during editing, what is selected, what gets cut or pasted, etc. Treating everything special (i.e. macros, images, links - things with parameters and/or bodies) as a framed object allows everything to be treated as an object, just like a character of text. Providing the frame also now allows you to explicitly see what is inside and outside a special object and allows you to select the object. For example, there is currently no way to select a link. You can select text that is linked, you can select an image that is linked, but you can't select a link. Raised in CONF-24026. |
Don Gamble | Display the associated parameters of the object (macro, image, link, etc) as text in the header of the objects frame. With macros and special objects now having a frame, the hidden parameters of a macro/special object can now be displayed. Entering edit mode should expose all of the hidden information that is not visible when the page is rendered. Currently entering edit mode results in still having to enter a deeper edit mode (i.e. the macro browser or the special popups) to see the true values to edit. An edit mode within an edit mode is a huge productive hit. Simply seeing how a page was created is not currently possible while in edit mode. A guiding rule should be "While in edit mode the user will be able to inspect the page and see all the properties effecting how the page renders without needing to do any further activities." If this rule was true a majority of the productivity hit of the new editor would be resolved. To do this requires displaying the parameters of macros and special objects in their frame. Raised in CONF-24026. |
Don Gamble | Allow the parameters in the frame to be edited as name value pairs and re-interpreted when focus leaves the frame. The final hit to productivity of the new editor is the need to enter a sub-edit mode (the macro editor or the special popups) when making a change to a parameter that is already applied to a macro or a link/image. Allowing the name value parameter pairs in the frame to be edited would allow rapid changes to be made with a few keystrokes with no loss of user focus caused by having to visit a dialog. Allowing new parameters to be added into the frame by just typing, for example "width" which is an obvious and easily remembered parameter on many macros, would allow common edits to occur quickly. Parameters that could not be parsed after the edit completes (i.e. after focus leaves the frame) could be handled by highlighting or in a similar way to how firebugs lets users change the parameters in the html editor window. Raised in CONF-24026. |
Don Gamble & Fast | The confluence editor should behave very similar to every other commonly used editor. At a high level, today's user's expectations of how an editor reacts is common across all editors. If the editor doesn't behave as commonly expected then the user's experience is compromised (some would say the editor is broken or unusable). I see these expectations as (please comment - do others agree?):
In general, the new editor doesn't respects these user expectations. This makes it slow, hard to use, and I would argue filled with special situations that while can each be individually explained as correct - as a whole make it wrong. An editor should be a simple experience - not complex. Specifically with respect to what should happen when the insertion point is at the beginning of a macro, i.e. just inside the body. I would suggest:
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FAQ's
Commonly brought up comments which may be of use to others who are following this page
Question | Answer |
I have a script that generates Wiki Markup and wrote it to a Confluence page using the API, can I still do this? | Yes. You can still send Wiki markup to the API which will convert it to the new source format and save. See this Answers discussion. |
How can I move the cursor outside a Macro (eg: a {code} or {column} macro) without using the mouse? | You can just press the 'down' arrow until the cursor moves out of the macro and back onto the page. |
My macro that worked in 3.x no longer works for Confluence 4.0 | See Upgrading and Migrating an Existing Confluence Macro to 4.0. |
Enter/Return gives me a new paragraph, how do I just get a aline break? | Press Shift+Enter |
I take notes in meetings etc offline in a text editor, formatted with Wiki markup then add them to a page later, how can I do this now? | You can still do this as before then insert them using the 'Insert' > 'Wiki Markup' dialog. |
How can I paste content without it's formatting? | In OSX you can natively do a 'Paste and Match Style' from the Edit menu or with the keyboard shortcut Command+Option+Shift+V. Can others recommend alternatives for other OS's? |
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